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Thread: Lt.-Col. R. Dick & Gen. Stirling’s 1822 Letters, On Origin of the Illusive Red Vulture Feather.

  1. #11
    Tam McCluskey
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    Quote Originally Posted by myway View Post
    Well done Tam,thats him telt,reminds me of the old saying, "Never let a dago by". I have to say though, one or two of our own at the likes of the reunion have taken to wearing the glengarry with a hackle behind the badge and the biggest offenders are the Tartan Army while following Scotlands football team but they, like our Spanish friend,dont know the difference. Bill...
    Bill,

    The man is a typical TROLL. Tho' I have to say, he has started to babble early. His hysteria is very amusing. Methinks I will ask the ask the moderators to cut him loose before he blows a gasket.

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by myway View Post
    Well done Tam,thats him telt,reminds me of the old saying, "Never let a dago by". I have to say though, one or two of our own at the likes of the reunion have taken to wearing the glengarry with a hackle behind the badge and the biggest offenders are the Tartan Army while following Scotlands football team but they, like our Spanish friend,dont know the difference. Bill...

    It’s telling by his comments, manipulating my narrative, first claims; “the Queen’s English and I have struggled with it ever since.” Has no clue on 3rd SCOTS BW, etc, etc, and that’s from someone who claims he served with the Regiment, by his wording?

    I have no time for games, and by forum rules attack the post not the poster, yes quite aware on the majority of sites-forums certain rules don’t apply to Valued members.

    So I’ll will reply in deference, nor do I have time for trivial matters, that are fruitless, "as for not kowning the difference," better luck next time.

    Offenders: An insult, etc., etc., that’s very true wearing a red heckle on a Glengarry.


    Joseph.


    .

  3. #13
    Tam McCluskey
    Guest
    Nemo me impune lacessit.

  4. #14
    Your false accusations, innuendoes etc., are clear.

    C.U.

  5. #15
    This is an update; till this date the BW archives was unable too produce copies or acknowledge the existence of these letters in question,
    if someone has evidence please post copies of the original letters.

    I’m aware of evidence at Fredericton NB, and in NS archives, need too pay their archivists, could cost a few 1000.00 cdn dollars.


    Although not the 42nd: The below was posted on ArmChair General forums, in reply too one of my threads on "Feathers" worn during
    AWOI by all sides, including the French, not forgetting, Spaņards.



    GD153/1/7: 71st refitted in 1783, LI Coy's c., averaging 2 black ostrich feathers per 1 red, the Grenadier Coy's 2 black and one white.


    GD153-1-7 Crop.jpg


    71st_NLS_Acc_9171-16_Cameron.jpg


    THK U FR YR TME Joseph.
    Last edited by Spaņiard; 1st May 2016 at 15:48. Reason: Adding stuff.

  6. #16
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    Good Day, I think that the Revolutionary War period as the source for the red hackle is a very good possibility. Most likely something brought back from the amalgamation of the Grenadiers and Light's into composite Battalions.

    One place that might be worth of looking is in the Lloyd's of London Archive. There among the Cox and Company Documents is a Ledger listing Officers uniform purchases from the mid to late 18th Century, and that might perhaps have listings of red plumes.

    Safe to say at the End of the French and Indian War they were not wearing red, as noted in this orderly book Entry from Cpt Stewart's Company 2/42 RHR.

    "Montreal 31 st May 1761.
    The Officers to provide themselves with black feathers for their bonnets which for the future to be regimental. The Non Commissioned Officers to wear bearskin tufts as they do."

  7. #17
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    Good Day Gent's

    Bumping this thread back up, as I have found some new information.

    The Ryland's library in Manchester holds the surviving papers of Lord John Murray, Regimental Colonel of the 42nd from 1745 to his death in 1787. Among those papers are an account book that has the following entry, it is undated but lies between documents dated 1756 to 1758. It is an inventory of clothing sent to the Regiment while deployed to North America, at the bottom of the inventory is the following;

    "NB 4 Pipers caps with red feathers sent with this clothing"

    So it looks as if the earliest use of the red feathers currently known was on the pipers during the French and Indian/7 Years War.

  8. #18
    Administrator Chalky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FredLucas View Post
    Good Day Gent's

    Bumping this thread back up, as I have found some new information.

    The Ryland's library in Manchester holds the surviving papers of Lord John Murray, Regimental Colonel of the 42nd from 1745 to his death in 1787. Among those papers are an account book that has the following entry, it is undated but lies between documents dated 1756 to 1758. It is an inventory of clothing sent to the Regiment while deployed to North America, at the bottom of the inventory is the following;

    "NB 4 Pipers caps with red feathers sent with this clothing"

    So it looks as if the earliest use of the red feathers currently known was on the pipers during the French and Indian/7 Years War.
    Hi Fred,

    Red Feathers were used at that time, however, they were used by 46th Regiment of Foot:

    Extract from The Black Watch at Ticonderoga:

    46th

    1751-82, The 46th Regiment of Foot. Also 1758 "Lieut. Gen. Thomas Murray's.

    1881 (from) Second Battalion "Duke of Cornwall's Light infantry."

    Nicknames: These pertain to the late 46th; "Murray's Buck's" (from Colonel name (1743-64) and its smart appearance on home duty in Scottish Royal livery).
    "The Surprisers" (from an incident (1777) in the American War). "The Lacedemonians" (its Colonel once when under fire, made a disciplinarian speech concerning the Lacedemonians). Also in early days, "The Edinburgh Regiment." "The Red Feathers." "The Docs" (the initials) .


    Note. "The Two Feathers" is a distinction of the 46th, a Light company of which, in 1777, with others were brigaded as "The Light Battalion." The Americans were so harassed by the Brigade that they vowed "No Quarter." In derision, to prevent mistakes, the Light Battalion dyed their feathers red; the 46th Foot alone has retained the distinction.

  9. #19
    Fred, Chalky, and all- greetings. So, one more currant in the cake mix!

    I believe we are talking about two different Colonels named Murray (Lord John for the 42nd and General Thomas for the 46th) and two different red feather traditions. The story told of the 46th- or rather their light coy, dates from 1777, as noted above, but it only surfaced much later (around the same time as the Geldermalsen story of the 42nd).

    This record of ‘caps with red feathers’ being sent for pipers of the 42nd to wear while in America is certainly interesting, not only for the early mention of red feathers but for the reference to ‘caps,’ rather than bonnets, which would be the more usual description. Whether it means headgear other than the bonnet, we can’t be sure. On the face of it, that would seem unlikely - but the 42nd were setting the fashion for Highland troops at that date, so who knows? Might they have been provided with bearskin caps like those worn by the grenadier coy, with the addition of red feathers? It would have predated the general custom of wearing of a distinction in the fur cap by about thirty years but it's not impossible. The fur grenadier cap was more or less unique to the 42nd circa 1758 so the Colonel could write the rules. As we know, only a short time later, officers were wearing a ‘regimental’ black ostrich feather in their bonnets, while NCOs wore a tuft of bearskin.

    If the document is undated but was bound between others dated 1756 & 1758 that rules out the account being filed incorrectly. However, if it is loose in the ledger then it might, possibly, date from later, during the American war when Murray was still Colonel and James Stirling reported being ordered to get red feathers for the 42nd. That would be a long shot, though.

    There's no reason why Lord John Murray might not have ordered caps with red ostrich feathers for his pipers circa 1756-58. As we know, only a short time later officers were wearing a black ostrich feather -‘regimental’- in their bonnets, while NCOs wore a tuft of bearskin.

    One possibility is that the ‘caps with red feathers’ sent for pipers related to the granting of the title of a ‘Royal' Regiment in July 1758 (The date of the subsequent document might determine that) In any event, the measure seems to have been short-lived since we hear nothing further of a bonnet distinction for Black Watch pipers. As far as I am aware, once the ‘red feather’ was adopted (whether circa 1776 or in the summer of 1795), apart perhaps from a brief period after Waterloo, pipers wore the same distinctive ornament as the main body of the regiment.

  10. #20
    Administrator Chalky's Avatar
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    I am at present reading this book:

    ACW.jpg

    I came across this part about the burial of a General.

    MILITARY JOURNAL, 1780

    The corpse was followed by the officers of the New Hampshire brigade; the officers of the brigade of light infantry, which the deceased had lately commanded. Other officers fell in promiscuously, and were followed by his Excellency General Washington, and other general officers. Having arrived at the burying yard, the troops opened to the right and left, resting on their arms reversed, and the procession passed to the grave, where a short eulogy was delivered by the Reverend Mr. Evans. A band of music, with a number of drums and fifes, played a funeral dirge, the drums were muffled with black crape, and the officers in the procession wore crape round the left arm.

    The regiment of light infantry, were in handsome uniform, and wore in their caps, long feathers of black and red. The elegant regiment of horse, commanded by Major Lee, being in complete uniform and well disciplined, exhibited a martial and noble appearance.

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