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Thread: Lt.-Col. R. Dick & Gen. Stirling’s 1822 Letters, On Origin of the Illusive Red Vulture Feather.

  1. #1

    Lt.-Col. R. Dick & Gen. Stirling’s 1822 Letters, On Origin of the Illusive Red Vulture Feather.

    I’m looking for the original copies, or transcripts of both letters of correspondence, without authors touch, word for word. The letters are misplaced,
    and it’s clear many are not aware, considering “Old Daddy’s” account goes against the grain, of established history.

    The status quo historical account on origin of the SCOTS & Canadian, Black Watch wearing a red feather, dates to Jan. 1795 for the regiment’s service
    during the British retreat through the Flemish village of Guildermalson, for their “heroic gallantry,” as the capture of abandoned guns. It’s historical fact,
    the first “official” use, occurred when the 42nd Regiment at Royston Hertfordshire, paraded in celebrations for King George III, birthday, were issued
    red vulture feathers, on June 4th 1795.


    In Oct. 2014 I contacted the Regimental archives, at Balhousie Castle in Perth Scotland, the BW Association, and the Red Hackle Journal, concerning the
    matter, responding: “We are not aware of letters etc, however looking into your request.” David Stewart of Garth, Sketches published in 1822, transcripts
    and extracts of correspondence, accounts on the red feather, which were from an account that took place years before, supports part of Stirling’s foggy
    recollections. However Garth’s Sketches are problematic, at times 3rd party recollections dating back decades, in contradiction on now known facts, which
    paints a different picture. One must also take into consideration, that Gen, Garth’s body of work, was chopped up like taco meat, by plagiarist, taking his
    accounts, rewriting and making it their own, while other Historians/Authors source Garth.


    Hi Joseph

    Unfortunately to my knowledge we do not have the letters to which you refer in the archives. We have used the same sources as you (Stewart of Garth) etc.
    No clear indication has been given but as you correctly allude the feathers were worn long before the battle of Geldermalsen in 1795 where some opine that
    was where we won the right to wear the Hackle by recovering captured guns from the French after another regiment (most probably Cavalry) failed to do it.

    We also agree that Maitland may have brought them to the 42nd when the regiment in which he served was disbanded. My own theory is that like most parts
    of our Ceremonial Uniform today it stemmed from a practical reason, the most obvious of which was a recognition mark when soldiers were fighting in close
    country, the unit commanders could identify the colour of feather which their soldiers wore In their bonnets.

    Regards
    Major Ronnie Proctor MBE
    Secretary
    The Black Watch Association


    Maj. Proctor’s last comment holds water, as echoed by many throughout the decades, including Moi; “the most obvious of which was a recognition
    mark when soldiers were fighting in close country, the unit commanders could identify the colour of feather which their soldiers wore In their bonnets.”


    The Major’s comment on the Guildermalson, Jan 1795 account, on origin of “a red vulture feather,” rings true; “now widely accepted as not creatable and
    should be discarded from Mother’s history.”


    Academics, scholars, etc., immersed in the erudite study, on the genesis of the 42nd wearing the red feather, equivocate in their analyses. Some question
    acquiring, red ostrich feathers, for circa 1000 men on the road to the capital, Philadelphia, as highly improbable, as for “stained their feathers red,” requires
    a delicate touch. Problematic accounts, which have been critically scrutinised.


    It’s to be considered; some claim correspondence from Dick and Stirling’s reply was submitted, prompting the decision by AHQ, however Dick wrote in,
    “Sept. 8th. 1822 and Stirling’s replied after the fact. “For Officers commanding Highland Regiments.” Horse Guards 20th Aug. 1822, General Order,
    “The Red Vulture feather prescribed by the recent regulations, for the Highland Regiments, is intended to be used exclusively by the Forty-Second Regiment:
    Other Highland corps will be allowed to continue to wear the same description of feather that may have been hitherto in use.” “H. Torrens, Adjutant-General.”
    Historians/authors concluded Garth’s Sketches and Stirling: “This tells us the 71st Highland Regiment of Foot, the re-raised Fraser Highlanders, Were the
    first to wear a red feather while servicing in North America around 1776.”



    In Dick’s letter asking for clarity: “I have always understood since I have been in the Regiment (1808), that the Red Feather was given them for taking or
    defeating a regiment of Grenadiers and that the Lt Company of the 48th [sic] who were with them on that occasion, (the 48th?), got it at the same time,
    but I cannot remember when I heard this took place...” Stirling further added, wasn’t until 1802, on their return to England, the King supposedly granted
    official permission, however that award only surfaced in the 1840s. The correspondence wasn’t considered, later discarded by Mother’s as she established
    history on origin of the red vulture feathers, while already safe guarded by Horse Guard, the letters were left in obscurity until conveniently brought to light
    in 1967. In 1968, Howard Philip published the regiment’s history, concluding the battle of Brandywine Creek could be the Watch’s “famous and mysterious
    Red Hackle,” or “an award for many years of service in North America.” In the SCOTS Black Watch Regimental Journal “The Red Hackle,” April 1982 issue,
    the letters were reintroduced, concerning origin of the red feather with a possible connection to AWI, with the 71st in 1776, or 77 maybe 78, the article
    was unsigned, not even, “un non de la plume.”


    Gen. Stirling further added; “that’s when he arrived in New York with the 42nd in 1776 the 2nd LI Batt. were wearing a red feather while the 1st LI wore a green feather.”




    Official BW History:
    “In 1822, because of an erroneous direction in a book of dress for the guidance of the army, some of the other Highland regiments considered that they too
    had a right to wear "a red vulture feather." The 42nd, however, remonstrated, and its representations to headquarter resulted in the following memorandum:”
    Source: BW Record of an Historic Regiment, by A. Forbes 1896.



    The General Regulations and Orders for the Army. Adj.-Gen’s Office, Horse-Guards, 1st, Jan. 1822. Caps of the Infantry p. 91, regulation feathers
    can be worn, etc.


    Sketches of the Character, Manners, and Present State of the Highlanders of The Highlanders of Scotland. Vol. II, By -Col. David Stewart (1822). Vol II.

    The part where: “Fraser’s Highlanders wore the red feather after Colonel Maitland’s death, and continued to do so till the conclusion of the war, etc.”
    Doesn’t appear in Vol II.



    Sketches of the Character, Manners, and Present State of the Highlanders of The Highlanders of Scotland. Vol. II, By Maj.-Gen. David Stewart (1825).
    Third Edition. p. 132-133.

    Part IV. History of the Royal Highland Regiment. Vol. II. England, 1809 till Waterloo.


    Fraser’s Highlanders, Or Seventy-First Regiment. 1775.


    Lt.-Col. Maitland original a Marine transferred to the line, and appointed Major to Fraser’s Highlanders(?). His arrival at Savannah came at a critical moment,
    during the skirmish warfare in Jerseys and Pennsylvania, in the year 1776 and 1777, he was particularly active. Ever on alert, and having his Highlanders always
    ready, he attracted the particular notice of General Washington. Some communications having passed between them as old acquaintances, although then opposed
    as enemies, Colonel Maitland sent intimation to the American commander, that in future his men would be distinguished by a red feather in their bonnets, so that
    he could not mistake them, nor avoid doing justice to their exploits, in annoying his posts, and obstructing his convoys and detachments: adding, that General
    Washington was too liberal not to acknowledge merit even in an enemy. Fraser’s Highlanders wore the red feather after Colonel Maitland’s death, and continued
    to do so till the conclusion of the war. Such was the origin of the red feather subsequently worn in the Highland bonnet, about which some idle tales have been
    repeated. In the year 1795, the red feather was assumed by the Royal Highland Regiment.



    A pamphlet, compiled by MacKerlie, with access to the olden day’s record books: “An Account of the Scottish Regiments with the Statistics of Each, from
    1808-1861.” Under the 42nd Regiment, concerning the red feather; “we cannot recollect our authority, but have always understood that the red feather worn
    in their bonnets was given as a mark of distinction, for their gallantry in America.”



    The irony, a similar account was also mentioned in a copy of Lt.-Col. Hubley’s letter dated year 1777: LETTER OF MAJOR J. H. T. CORNISH-BOWDEN,
    THE DUKE OF CORNWALL'S LIGHT INFANTRY REGIMENT.—

    The 46th Foot, now the 2d Battalion Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry:


    “One thing is certain and that is that the 46th Regiment have worn a distinctive red mark in their head gear ever since memory can reach. Until Light Companies
    were abolished (after the Crimean War) it was borne by the officers and men of that company only. I have found a letter authorizing it to be borne by the whole
    unit in consideration of its interesting origin—details again not stated—on the occasion of the then reorganization. In one form and another the badge has been
    sanctified by a vast amount of blood. Cannot you see how impossible it is for us to knock it down and trample upon it because it refuses to fit into a cold historical
    niche? Yours sincerely, J. H. T. Cornish-Bowden.”




    .
    Last edited by Spañiard; 6th December 2014 at 19:12.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Spañiard View Post
    I’m looking for the original copies, or transcripts of both letters of correspondence, without authors touch, word for word. The letters are misplaced,
    and it’s clear many are not aware, considering “Old Daddy’s” account goes against the grain, of established history.

    The status quo historical account on origin of the SCOTS & Canadian, Black Watch wearing a red feather, dates to Jan. 1795 for the regiment’s service
    during the British retreat through the Flemish village of Gedermaisen, for their “heroic gallantry,” as the capture of abandoned guns. It’s historically fact,
    the first “official” use, occurred when the 42nd Regiment at Royston Hertfordshire, paraded in celebrations for King George III, birthday, were issued
    red vulture feathers, on June 4th 1795.


    In Oct. 2014 I contacted the Regimental archives, at Balhousie Castle in Perth Scotland, the BW Association, and the Red Hackle Journal, concerning the
    matter, responding: “We are not aware of letters etc, however looking into your request.” David Stewart of Garth, Sketches published in 1822, transcripts
    and extracts of correspondence, accounts on the red feather, which were from an account that took place years before, supports part of Stirling’s foggy
    recollections. However Garth’s Sketches are problematic, at time 3rd part recollections dating back decades, in contradiction on now known facts, which
    paints a different picture. One must also take into consideration, that Gen, Garth’s body of work, was chopped up like taco meat, by plagiarist, taking his
    accounts, rewriting and making it their own, while other Historians/Authors source Garth.






    Maj. Proctor’s last comment holds water, as echoed by many throughout the decades, including Moi; “the most obvious of which was a recognition
    mark when soldiers were fighting in close country, the unit commanders could identify the colour of feather which their soldiers wore In their bonnets.”


    The Major’s comment on the Geldermaisen Jan 1795 account, on origin of “a red vulture feather,” rings true; “now widely accepted as not creatable and
    should be discarded from Mother’s history.”


    Academics, scholars, etc., immersed in the erudite study, on the genesis of the 42nd wearing the red feather, equivocate in their analyses. Some question
    acquiring, red ostrich feathers, for circa 1000 men on the road to the capital, Philadelphia, as highly improbable, as for “stained their feathers red,” requires
    a delicate touch. Problematic accounts, which have been critically scrutinised.


    It’s to be considered; some claim correspondence from Dick and Stirling’s reply was submitted, prompting the decision by AHQ, however Dick wrote in,
    “Sept. 8th. 1822 and Stirling’s replied after the fact. “For Officers commanding Highland Regiments.” Horse Guards 20th Aug. 1822, General Order,
    “The Red Vulture feather prescribed by the recent regulations, for the Highland Regiments, is intended to be used exclusively by the Forty-Second Regiment:
    Other Highland corps will be allowed to continue to wear the same description of feather that may have been hitherto in use.” “H. Torrens, Adjutant-General.”
    Historians/authors concluded Garth’s Sketches and Stirling: “This tells us the 71st Highland Regiment of Foot, the re-raised Fraser Highlanders, Were the
    first to wear a red feather while servicing in North America around 1776.”



    In Dick’s letter asking for clarity: “I have always understood since I have been in the Regiment (1808), that the Red Feather was given them for taking or
    defeating a regiment of Grenadiers and that the Lt Company of the 48th [sic] who were with them on that occasion, (the 48th?), got it at the same time,
    but I cannot remember when I heard this took place...” Stirling further added, wasn’t until 1802, on their return to England, the King supposedly granted
    official permission, however that award only surfaced in the 1840s. The correspondence wasn’t considered, later discarded by Mother’s as she established
    history on origin of the red vulture feathers, while already safe guarded by Horse Guard, the letters were left in obscurity until conveniently brought to light
    in 1967. In 1968, Howard Philip published the regiment’s history, concluding the battle of Brandywine Creek could be the Watch’s “famous and mysterious
    Red Hackle,” or “an award for many years of service in North America.” In the SCOTS Black Watch Regimental Journal “The Red Hackle,” April 1982 issue,
    the letters were reintroduced, concerning origin of the red feather with a possible connection to AWI, with the 71st in 1776, or 77 maybe 78, the article
    was unsigned, not even, “un non de la plume.”


    Gen. Stirling further added; “that’s when he arrived in New York with the 42nd in 1776 the 2nd LI Batt. were wearing a red feather while the 1st LI wore a green feather.”




    Official BW History:
    “In 1822, because of an erroneous direction in a book of dress for the guidance of the army, some of the other Highland regiments considered that they too
    had a right to wear "a red vulture feather." The 42nd, however, remonstrated, and its representations to headquarter resulted in the following memorandum:”
    Source: BW Record of an Historic Regiment, by A. Forbes 1896.



    The General Regulations and Orders for the Army. Adj.-Gen’s Office, Horse-Guards, 1st, Jan. 1822. Caps of the Infantry p. 91, regulation feathers
    can be worn, etc.


    Sketches of the Character, Manners, and Present State of the Highlanders of The Highlanders of Scotland. Vol. II, By -Col. David Stewart (1822). Vol II.

    The part where: “Fraser’s Highlanders wore the red feather after Colonel Maitland’s death, and continued to do so till the conclusion of the war, etc.”
    Doesn’t appear in Vol II.



    Sketches of the Character, Manners, and Present State of the Highlanders of The Highlanders of Scotland. Vol. II, By Maj.-Gen. David Stewart (1825).
    Third Edition. p. 132-133.

    Part IV. History of the Royal Highland Regiment. Vol. II. England, 1809 till Waterloo.


    Fraser’s Highlanders, Or Seventy-First Regiment. 1775.


    Lt.-Col. Maitland original a Marine transferred to the line, and appointed Major to Fraser’s Highlanders(?). His arrival at Savannah came at a critical moment,
    during the skirmish warfare in Jerseys and Pennsylvania, in the year 1776 and 1777, he was particularly active. Ever on alert, and having his Highlanders always
    ready, he attracted the particular notice of General Washington. Some communications having passed between them as old acquaintances, although then opposed
    as enemies, Colonel Maitland sent intimation to the American commander, that in future his men would be distinguished by a red feather in their bonnets, so that
    he could not mistake them, nor avoid doing justice to their exploits, in annoying his posts, and obstructing his convoys and detachments: adding, that General
    Washington was too liberal not to acknowledge merit even in an enemy. Fraser’s Highlanders wore the red feather after Colonel Maitland’s death, and continued
    to do so till the conclusion of the war. Such was the origin of the red feather subsequently worn in the Highland bonnet, about which some idle tales have been
    repeated. In the year 1795, the red feather was assumed by the Royal Highland Regiment.



    A pamphlet, compiled by MacKerlie, with access to the olden day’s record books: “An Account of the Scottish Regiments with the Statistics of Each, from
    1808-1861.” Under the 42nd Regiment, concerning the red feather; “we cannot recollect our authority, but have always understood that the red feather worn
    in their bonnets was given as a mark of distinction, for their gallantry in America.”



    The irony, a similar account was also mentioned in a copy of Lt.-Col. Hubley’s letter dated year 1777: LETTER OF MAJOR J. H. T. CORNISH-BOWDEN,
    THE DUKE OF CORNWALL'S LIGHT INFANTRY REGIMENT.—

    The 46th Foot, now the 2d Battalion Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry:


    “One thing is certain and that is that the 46th Regiment have worn a distinctive red mark in their head gear ever since memory can reach. Until Light Companies
    were abolished (after the Crimean War) it was borne by the officers and men of that company only. I have found a letter authorizing it to be borne by the whole
    unit in consideration of its interesting origin—details again not stated—on the occasion of the then reorganization. In one form and another the badge has been
    sanctified by a vast amount of blood. Cannot you see how impossible it is for us to knock it down and trample upon it because it refuses to fit into a cold historical
    niche? Yours sincerely, J. H. T. Cornish-Bowden.”




    .
    I think someone has got the wrong end of the stick. The correspondence between Lieutenant-Colonel Dick and Major General Stirling is safe and sound in the Black Watch Regimental Archives. It was published in the Red Hackle of April 1982 in an article (unsigned) by Colonel, Hon David Arbuthnott. The implications of Major General Stirling's recollections revealed there are still gradually being absorbed into Regimental history, tradition being a slow moving beast, and the legends that grew up around the action at Geldermalsen (Holland) receding into their proper place. All is well.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Jf42 View Post
    I think someone has got the wrong end of the stick. The correspondence between Lieutenant-Colonel Dick and Major General Stirling is safe and sound in the Black Watch Regimental Archives. It was published in the Red Hackle of April 1982 in an article (unsigned) by Colonel, Hon David Arbuthnott. The implications of Major General Stirling's recollections revealed there are still gradually being absorbed into Regimental history, tradition being a slow moving beast, and the legends that grew up around the action at Geldermalsen (Holland) receding into their proper place. All is well.

    Certainly it’s me holding the short end of the stick, and known of the letters, as JF stated are safe guarded in the BW archives for decades. The Red Heckle Journal Apr. 1982 was echoed in Canada’s Red Hackle, Mag., Issue No.010 Spring & Summer 2007, p 37-38. Origins Of The Red Hackle, by Earl Chapman, which I have.

    The Major replied: Tom Smyth our part retired archivist will be in to visit me on Monday and I will pass on your email to him.



    More like dragging your heel, (Very BW) at a halt, changes on traditions, history or corrections at a snails crawl, especially when it goes against the grain of established history.


    This is the West Senator: I’ll be very American, “Huston we have a problem,” in the movie, Apollo 13th, USA icon, Ron Howard was critically scrutinised by American historians, scholars. While news and public were shocked into chagrined, stupefied uncovering the middle word of the phrase was altered, and the last word removed in historical accounts. Even the American Propaganda Machine reporting the Apollo mission, printed that same phrase.

    “Houston, we've had a problem here”, was the actual message sent to mission control. In interview “Ritchie,” was asked why he wasn’t historical correct in his movie, responded: “When the legend become fact, print the legend.”




    .
    Last edited by Spañiard; 3rd December 2014 at 18:26.

  4. #4
    I lost the copies etc can't fined, and the CDN Red Hackle mag paint's with a wide brush, thank’s to JF some moons ago. posted parts
    of the April 1982 article. For all that are interested, contents of the letters as fallows.




    It’s to be considered; some claim correspondence from Dick and Stirling’s reply was submitted, prompting the decision by AHQ, however Dick wrote in,
    “Sept. 8th. 1822 and Stirling’s replied after the fact. In Dick’s letter asking for clarity, owing to the Adj.-Gen’s request: “From what period and by what
    authority, the 42nd Regt had worn the Red Feather the same as is now ordered for the other Highland Regiments. But as you served in the Corps and
    Commanded it so many years, I think you may be able perhaps to give me the necessary information on the subject. I have always understood since
    I have been in the Regiment, that the Red Feather was given them for taking or defeating a regiment of Grenadiers and that the Lt Company of the 48th
    who were with them on that occasion, got it at the same time, but I cannot remember when I heard this took place...”

    Gen. Stirling replies: “In answer to your letter of 8th inst. relative to know how the 42nd Regt came to wear the Red Feather. The origin of their wearing this
    feather commenced early in the American War of 1776 when the regiment was Brigaded with the Grenadiers and Light Infantry of the Army under the command
    of the late Marquis Cornwallis- at this period there were no regulation feathers, the grenadiers wore White Feathers, the first battalion Light Infantry wore Green,
    the 2nd Light Infantry wore Red, and to make the whole uniform General Sir William Howe, then Commander-in-Chief, ordered the 42nd to get red feathers which
    they have wore ever since.

    When the regiment arrived in England from Egypt (1802) they were reviewed by His late Majesty and Colonel Dickson who then Commanded them asked his
    majesty's permission to wear the red feather, which he was graciously pleased to grant- at this time the regulation feather had come out. (1800) it was great
    neglect of Colonel Dickson in his not getting a Government order for the Regiment to wear this feather, and to have it recorded in the Standing Orderly Book
    of the Regiment. This is all the information I can give you.” However that award only surfaced in the 1840s?


    The correspondence wasn’t considered, later discarded by Mother’s as she established history on origin of the red vulture feathers, while already safe guarded
    by Horse Guard, the letters were left in obscurity until conveniently brought to light in 1967. In 1968, Howard Philip published the regiment’s history, concluding
    the battle of Brandywine Creek could be the Watch’s “famous and mysterious Red Hackle,”




    Earl Chapman remarks on origin of the red feather; “most telling of all, who ever heard of a government Dress Committee taking a decision
    stemming from a battle in January, in time for a parade the fallowing June! (Jun. 4th 1795 at Royston, Hertfordshire). Hence, it is now generally
    accepted that the Red Hackle was not issued for special distinction at Geldermaisen.”



    Taken into serous consideration at Geldermaisen, the 42nd heroic gallantry, for their action in battle, oddly wasn’t mentioned in General Dundas`s
    official despatch, nor any award of a Red Vulture Feather, officially recorded.



    Throughout decades always asked this question, since I’m not English. How does one make things whole, uniform, when 2nd LI is wearing
    red feathers and then Howe orders the 42nd to get red feathers, it would be, “au contraire,” in contradiction of the definition. Howe ordering
    the 42nd to wear black ostrich feathers would certainly make things whole.


    The question to ask, was the 42nd, owing to tradition, wearing black ostrich feathers, in 1776?


    .
    Last edited by Spañiard; 4th December 2014 at 17:05.

  5. #5
    Senior Member
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    The most recent official Regimental history "Highland Furies" was written by Victoria Schofield and is very well researched. See pages 186, 187-188 and 376-7 for detail on the Red Hackle.

  6. #6
    Tam McCluskey
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by RoddyRiddell View Post
    The most recent official Regimental history "Highland Furies" was written by Victoria Schofield and is very well researched. See pages 186, 187-188 and 376-7 for detail on the Red Hackle.
    "The Highland Furies" is good enough.

    Red Hackle April 1982, an extract from Colonel Arbuthnott's conclusion at the end of his article.

    "Sadly, then, there is no short and glamorous answer to the question “How did The Black Watch get the Red Hackle”………….However it came, this unique Regimental badge has been worn continuously in every form of headdress except the Glengarry for over 200 years. Today’s Highlanders can continue to wear it with pride".

    I was serving at Balhousie when Colonel David Arbuthnott produced the article. I see no reason to not go along with his conclusion. What is important is that serving and retired Black Watch men wear their Hackles and campaign medals earned by them with pride. I am certain that not one of them will lose any sleep as to the definitive origin of the Hackle. I can only conclude by saying that history was made by the men wearing it.
    Last edited by Tam McCluskey; 5th December 2014 at 11:15.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Tam McCluskey View Post
    "The Highland Furies" is good enough.

    Red Hackle April 1982, an extract from Colonel Arbuthnott's conclusion at the end of his article.

    "Sadly, then, there is no short and glamorous answer to the question “How did The Black Watch get the Red Hackle”………….However it came, this unique Regimental badge has been worn continuously in every form of headdress except the Glengarry for over 200 years. Today’s Highlanders can continue to wear it with pride".

    I was serving at Balhousie when Colonel David Arbuthnott produced the article. I see no reason to not go along with his conclusion. What is important is that serving and retired Black Watch men wear their Hackles and campaign medals earned by them with pride. I am certain that not one of them will lose any sleep as to the definitive origin of the Hackle. I can only conclude by saying that history was made by the men wearing it.

    Regimental history "Highland Furies" written by Victoria Schofield: There’s no smoking gun, on origin, however BW have continuously worn the red hackle for 200 years on all headgear, for the exception of the Glengarry. Was that part of Scots BW Standing Orders, only the cap badge is worn on the left side, pre and early in the FWW until they switch?

    Therefore her simple math states = officially used and documented by 1812, if book Vol. I published in 2012, and worn for 200 years. Her comments have been echoed by many throughout decades, including Col. David Arbuthnott, even though he suggested Brandywine, or still up for further debate. There’s evidence that suggests worn pre 1812, as for the Glengarry looks like someone muddied the water. No worries CDN BW, Mother had all the negatives of pics altered, and pictures ordered destroyed from 1915-16.


    Frederick_Fisher.jpg


    British Black Watch Hackle.jpg


    I have no Issue with Schofield’s overall drawn conclusion on, “nobody knows for sure,” therefore Mother’s official history; on-line etc., should firmly echo those facts, instead of the championed Guildermalson, Jan. 1795 awarded feathers account.

    As X CDN BW, even when I questioned, concluding not a battle honour, just a designation in recognition, I lost no sleep and still wear, my unique, Canadian flavoured bloomed heckle, with pride, a lost tradition. When, where and why was this Canadian tradition established, research accounts from BW Reg, Force Vets reveals, started by RSM Finnie, a File tradition while the Battalion was stationed in Germany. The RSM as others were agitated constantly being mistaken for Scot BW, hence the blooming distinguished, a distinction to the CDN BW, nicknamed the Ladies, or Royals, separates us, from our Regimental Scottish cousins. (Note: CDN DND, DHH officially, nicknamed the, Ladies from Hell, however that’s not fact).


    CDN Black Watch Red Bloomed Hackles.jpg


    Considering long before we had authority, 5th Battalion Volunteer Militia Rifles of Canada, Jan 31st 1862 wore tuft red feathers on their caps; if I remember correctly.


    As a Spaniard, was introduced to the bagpipes at 3 years old, and Spain’s Army, Navy have worn feathers, especially red heckles and plumes as an adornment circa pre 1750 - post 1800, a designation of recognition, part of the uniform and well documented with contemporary evidence, look exactly like those wore by the 42nd 1800s. Spain’s Army wore red heckles, feathers before the Black Watch, or British Army un or officially adopted feathers, considering many other armies throughout time have worn plumed or tuft red feathers: including the Patriots in AWI and North/South American Indians, while the New York Mohawks produced dye’s, paints, a vibrant red, unlike the S/A Indian red .
    Last edited by Spañiard; 6th December 2014 at 18:46.

  8. #8
    Tam McCluskey
    Guest
    Until I was five years old my first language was not the Queen’s English and I have struggled with it ever since. I do not understand what mothers and fathers have to do with this discussion. Incidentally we are not the Scots BW, we are “The Black Watch”. The Black Watch of Canada no doubt want their proper title. I should have thought you would have known when The Black Watch of Canada were given the privilege to wear the Red Hackle, given your decades of study, I most certainly do.
    Regarding the Glengarry there are some people wandering the planet wearing Glengarries with Hackles, pipe bands in particular. Your black and white photo is not a Black Watch Glengarry; it may be any number of regiments but it is certainly not The Black Watch. The Glengarry with the Hackle was never worn by The Black Watch. Looks like something from eBay. Therefore, I think your whole waffle on this thread stinks of trolling.
    I have nothing further to encourage your study as to the origins of “my” Regiments Red Hackle. My only question is who are you? Most people on here know who I am!
    Incidentally the only thing The Black Watch would put in the glass provided for your Hackle would be a large dram of usquebae.
    Finally, I can only commend to you is that your tirade has awaken me to look after my Regiment from the threat of “Space Cadets”………..below should explain.

    “The Major replied: Tom Smyth our part retired archivist will be in to visit me on Monday and I will pass on your email to him”
    “More like dragging your heel, (Very BW) at a halt, changes on traditions, history or corrections at a snails crawl, especially when it goes against the grain of established history”.

    “Balhousie do you have a problem?”

    According to Spaniard we do!

    “Huston we have a problem,” in the movie, Apollo 13th, USA icon, Ron Howard was critically scrutinised by American historians, scholars. While news and public were shocked into chagrined, stupefied uncovering the middle word of the phrase was altered, and the last word removed in historical accounts. Even the American Propaganda Machine reporting the Apollo mission, printed that same phrase.

    “Houston, we've had a problem here”, was the actual message sent to mission control. In interview “Ritchie,” was asked why he wasn’t historical correct in his movie, responded: “When the legend become fact, print the legend.”
    END OF!
    Finally what do Franco’s red feathers have to do with The Black Watch?
    Last edited by Tam McCluskey; 7th December 2014 at 11:24.

  9. #9
    Senior Member
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    Well done Tam,thats him telt,reminds me of the old saying, "Never let a dago by". I have to say though, one or two of our own at the likes of the reunion have taken to wearing the glengarry with a hackle behind the badge and the biggest offenders are the Tartan Army while following Scotlands football team but they, like our Spanish friend,dont know the difference. Bill...

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Tam McCluskey View Post
    Until I was five years old my first language was not the Queen’s English and I have struggled with it ever since. I do not understand what mothers and fathers have to do with this discussion. Incidentally we are not the Scots BW, we are “The Black Watch”. The Black Watch of Canada no doubt want their proper title. I should have thought you would have known when The Black Watch of Canada were given the privilege to wear the Red Hackle, given your decades of study, I most certainly do.
    Regarding the Glengarry there are some people wandering the planet wearing Glengarries with Hackles, pipe bands in particular. Your black and white photo is not a Black Watch Glengarry; it may be any number of regiments but it is certainly not The Black Watch. The Glengarry with the Hackle was never worn by The Black Watch. Looks like something from eBay. Therefore, I think your whole waffle on this thread stinks of trolling.
    I have nothing further to encourage your study as to the origins of “my” Regiments Red Hackle. My only question is who are you? Most people on here know who I am!
    Incidentally the only thing The Black Watch would put in the glass provided for your Hackle would be a large dram of usquebae.
    Finally, I can only commend to you is that your tirade has awaken me to look after my Regiment from the threat of “Space Cadets”………..below should explain.

    “The Major replied: Tom Smyth our part retired archivist will be in to visit me on Monday and I will pass on your email to him”
    “More like dragging your heel, (Very BW) at a halt, changes on traditions, history or corrections at a snails crawl, especially when it goes against the grain of established history”.


    “Balhousie do you have a problem?”

    According to Spaniard we do!

    “Huston we have a problem,” in the movie, Apollo 13th, USA icon, Ron Howard was critically scrutinised by American historians, scholars. While news and public were shocked into chagrined, stupefied uncovering the middle word of the phrase was altered, and the last word removed in historical accounts. Even the American Propaganda Machine reporting the Apollo mission, printed that same phrase.

    “Houston, we've had a problem here”, was the actual message sent to mission control. In interview “Ritchie,” was asked why he wasn’t historical correct in his movie, responded: “When the legend become fact, print the legend.”
    END OF!
    Finally what do Franco’s red feathers have to do with The Black Watch?


    Grasping at straws and certainly assuming, what does Franco red feathers have to do with the 1800s, French, Spaniards, and Americans wearing red feathers, just making an observation.

    Scots Black Watch: The Black Watch, 3rd Battalion, Royal Regiment of Scotland (3 SCOTS) is an infantry battalion of the Royal Regiment of Scotland. From Wiki.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Watch


    Scots as a Scottish Regiment from Scotland.

    "Mother," is a word association, the Regiment as a whole is Mother, per say, and that term is very British.


    That was my argument, I never seen in Canadian, Scottish Black Watch pictures which I have over 100s, wearing Glengarries never wore red hackles. I was asking If It was part of the Standing Orders, of the Scottish Black Watch since I’m Canadian Black Watch.



    Picture of L/Cpl Fredrick “Bud” Fisher VC, from the Infamous, notorious 13th Battalion First Contingent CEF, IS VERY CDN BLACK WATCH,
    his heroic gallantry while on “Retreat,” Enshrined in Canadian, British Accounts.

    This is the altered picture, from the altered negative.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Fisher



    F. Bud Fisher.jpg





    The Major replied: Tom Smyth our part retired archivist will be in to visit me on Monday and I will pass on your email to him”
    “More like dragging your heel, (Very BW) at a halt, changes on traditions, history or corrections at a snails crawl, especially when it goes against the grain of established history”.


    See your trolling, wasn't talking about the Major, ect. I posted like this:

    The Major replied: Tom Smyth our part retired archivist will be in to visit me on Monday and I will pass on your email to him”



    “More like dragging your heel, (Very BW) at a halt, changes on traditions, history or corrections at a snails crawl, especially when it goes against the grain of established history”.


    The space was when commenting to JF remarks, if those letters are missing then JF will tell You, we do have a problem.

    Then I responded with [Do You, know what is]: “This is the West Senator:” ?????????“When the legend become fact, print the legend.”




    13th Batt. FC CEF 1915.

    5th Regt RHC 1915.jpg


    Capt Bovey & Officers of 5th Regt R H C 1914.jpg
    5th Regt. RHC [Black Watch]1914.



    .
    Last edited by Spañiard; 7th December 2014 at 18:20.

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